Topic: Foie Gras uproar: P&O Responds...

"I believe that it's the choices we make that define us as moral beings. Some like to kill; some let others kill for them; and some try to avoid killing at all."

I'm fascinated (but not surprised) that you state this is not a claim for moral superiority on the part of vegetarians, and then tack a snide moral comment on the end of your denial.

BTW, B12 deficiency is not a myth, it's fully addressed in articles by the Vegetarian Society, which does indeed advise vegans to check food labels for B12 additives, since they choose to exclude this from their natural diet. I was not implying anything underhand re 'truly vegans', perhaps I should have said 'strict vegans'. if that's not a tautology. I never concern myself overly with those who comment on morality, instead recalling the words of Thomas Jefferson - "they sleep soundly in their beds, for rough men stand ready in the night to do violence to those who would do them harm". Morality is a complex subject, and (Buddhists aside), I tend to regard vegans as simply another oddball PC group. Others with more outspoken morals than I would certainly claim that God put animals on Earth to be our slaves and our food supply. Not that I believe in God....

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I might be stepping over your line, but not mine:

I would like to be able to prevent other people from making choices I find repugnant (wouldn't we all?), but I don't have that power. However, since I live in a (fairly) democratic society I'm allowed to air my views and try to influence others.

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Amazing how different subjects produce different responses.

Indeed, knowing now that he also has extreme dietary views, wouldn't you just know that meat farmers would be first against the wall if someone died and made him king? :-)

Mind you, as a skinny 6' 3" guy, I'd probably be able to go undercover until we got the carnivore resistance organised! :-)

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...vegans tend to suffer from deficiency diseases!

Perhaps you would help me to understand this statement MadMacStew. Are you saying that vegans are more likely than not to suffer from deficiency diseases? Are you claiming that the majority of vegans do in fact suffer from deficiency diseases? And are the diseases you have in mind all related to vitamin B12?

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BTW, B12 deficiency is not a myth, it's fully addressed in articles by the Vegetarian Society,..

All of us, whether carnivores, omnivores or vegans, are advised to ensure we include everything our bodies need in our various diets. (I don't know if there's a 'Carnivore Society', but I imagine they'd advise vitamin C supplements!) When the Vegetarian Society and the Vegan Society (and any other interested party) advises vegans to make sure they include B12 in their diets they are doing no more than those who advise meat-eaters to eat their 5-a-day (vegans don't usually need reminding!). I accept the word 'myth' was a poor choice - I was simply alluding to the way some people seem to latch onto B12 as a means of discrediting the vegan diet (as happened previously with protein).

Sorry about the length of my response - I hope you won't forget to clarify the first quote .

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Amazing how different subjects produce different responses.

There's no inconsistency on my part Christiaan. I'm a great believer in freedom of speech - I just like it to remain pleasant. ;)

I'm saying that Vegans tend to have lower than recommended levels of calcium, iodine, iron, vitamin D and vitamin B12 in their basic diet. Unless they pay particular attention to these issues, deficiency diseases such as pernicious anaemia, rickets, and beri-beri can (and have) result. Since these deficiencies are well known, and since the various Vegan and Vegetarian organisations provide good advice on dietary matters (as you'd expect), the incidence of these ailments among modern Western Vegans is very low. This is predictable, given that Vegans are by nature obsessive about their diets.

Turning to your second point, there isn't a 'Carnivore Society', as this is a normal human diet and contains all that we need - given the good old '5 a day' recommendation which ensures an adequate supply of Vitamin C, no supplements needed. I agree that early criticisms of lack of protein in the Vegan diet were scare-mongering (although we're going back to the 40s and 50s here, when soya products were less ubiquitous and many 'pioneer' vegans did in fact suffer from protein deficiency due to poor information).

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I'm saying that Vegans tend to have lower than recommended levels of calcium, iodine, iron, vitamin D and vitamin B12 in their basic diet. Unless they pay particular attention to these issues, deficiency diseases such as pernicious anaemia, rickets, and beri-beri can (and have) result. Since these deficiencies are well known, and since the various Vegan and Vegetarian organisations provide good advice on dietary matters (as you'd expect), the incidence of these ailments among modern Western Vegans is very low. This is predictable, given that Vegans are by nature obsessive about their diets...

Are you saying that vegans tend to have lower levels of certain vitamins and minerals in their diet, but actually they don't because they are 'obsessive about their diets'? Isn't there a problem in your logic?

By the way... I like the way you've started to capitalise 'Vegans'. It makes me feel quite special! ;)

I'm saying that Vegans have to take special care because their rejection of animal products leads to dietary deficiencies if not carefully monitored. The rest of us don't have to worry about such matters. My logic is fine - the price of veganism is eternal vigilance, to paraphrase an old saying.

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I'm saying that Vegans have to take special care because their rejection of animal products leads to dietary deficiencies if not carefully monitored. The rest of us don't have to worry about such matters. My logic is fine - the price of veganism is eternal vigilance, to paraphrase an old saying.

Hi MadMacStew

I suppose that's how it might seem to non-vegans - for us it's business as usual; a non-issue; the norm. And with the greatest respect, I've been vegan half my life; several members of my family are vegan; I've been a member of the Vegan Society; I've written articles in magazines on veganism; and so on. Don't you think it's possible that I might be more aware of the practical consequences of veganism than you?

Regards

As noted, I wasn't talking about articulate and aware vegans, but those slightly dimmer bulbs who have been persuaded by the ethical argument but haven't actually gone into the physical ramifications. As you previously observed, many products advertised as 'suitable for vegans' such as Marmite, do have supplements artificially added to compensate. Must be a reet booger if you're a vegan and in the 'hate it' category! :-)