Topic: Foie Gras uproar: P&O Responds...

QUOTE:

If I choose to boycott P&O restaurants (or P&O cruises for that matter), isn't that my choice?

If I want to suggest a boycott, isn't that my right?

If like-minded people choose to boycott P&O's restaurants, isn't that their decision?

Yes Dave entirely your decision, and mine too and I suspect quite a few others.

There will never be agreement between the humane amongst us and those who don't care how food is produced.

We all know that male calves go for beef, but they can have a reasonalbe quality of life before they do.

Judith

I love how you assume that veal farmers are inhumane, and that you are the gurdians of human morality. I know several farmers, and they are all very interested in the welfare of their livestock. Note - live stock, not pets. If you don't want to eat veal, that's your choice, but if you try to stop *me* eating veal, then you have a a whole different scenario to face.

UK bred veal isn't really an issue for me. Veal crates are an issue. I'm not sure how widely these are used these days on the continent and I'm not sure how much I can rely on labels saying meat is British as I believe that animals slaughtered in the UK count for a British label even if reared in Europe and shipped over for slaughter.

As I am not sure I can rely on any veal not having come from veal crating methods I steer away from it. I will discuss my views with others as not all know about some methods of veal production. Personally I seek to air issues and provoke debates rather than force my opinions on others.

If people are happy to eat veal knowing how it is produced then this is a matter for their own conscience.

I stress that there is a big difference in UK reared veal and veal reared in some parts of Europe - it is the latter that is the problem. I accept that male calves need to be culled and I would far rather their meat be eaten than wasted. However I see no reason why their life, however short, needn't be comfortable and free from unpleasant practices.

There is no need for an animal to be mistreated just to satisfy the delicacy of some people's palate.

I don't actually have a problem with labelling, as living in the 'Heart of England' means that I have fresh farm produce of all sorts available in my vicinity - even ostrich! That said, you're quite right that meat raised on mainland Europe and slaughtered in the UK can be labelled as British. You can tell genuine UK veal quite readily, as it's noticeably pinker than the traditional milk-fed product, hence the generic term Rose Veal.

QUOTE:

Things may be different in Whitstable, but up here in Leicestershire the Law frowns on wife-beating, which is an extreme comparison when we're talking about cruise ship menus. You can do whatever you like, but it's not a 'right'. And you touch on a great gulf 'twixt thee and me - no, I would *not* like to be able to stop things that others do, I'm sure that you would be very unhappy if I exercised such a power. I spend a fair bit of time in religious debates blasting so-called 'Christians' who want to run everyone's life by their narrow-minded (and very unchristian!) rules. The veal calves are a byproduct and will be killed in any event, so once again you fail to come up with a reasoned argument! :-)

Your first sentence shows we've obviously misunderstood each other. Let me try to clarify my position...

I think that there are some things other people do that aren't nice - things which may or may not be against the law, but some people still do them anyway. I see no problem in wanting some things to change. I have no 'power' - only the rights endowed on me by this democratic society to present my case for change, and to vote for change. Does that make me a bad person?

Regarding your final sentence: I assume you meant calves are a by-product of the dairy industry, and you are, of course, completely correct. As a vegan I'm in a position to offer an entirely rational and non-hypocritical argument: Veal calves are a by-product of the dairy industry; therefore I would like there to be no dairy industry. This might not be view of many, but it's my view. I want to live my life causing the least possible harm to other living beings, and I would like others to do the same. Actually, we do have something in common - I've often argued with Christians on this very question.

(Please notice my careful use of the word 'like'! ;))

Finally, you do argue your case! :-)
My concern is with those who wish to force their own world view on others. I am just as convinced that I am right as you are that you are right, but I wouldn't want either of us to *compel* the other to conform - see China and Afghanistan for why.
I'm not sure how 'rational' is your livestock argument, as vegans tend to suffer from deficiency diseases! We are by evolution omnivores, and to deny that for some moral sense seems perverse to me. I can however understand the Buddhist-like approach to harming no living thing, and I have no problem with it so long as the torches and pitchforks don't come out for we carnivores.
I agree with you that it's odd that the religion which demands that we love others as ourselves is the home of so many who are filled with hate for anyone not in their little cult, and wish hellfire and damnation on everyone else. On religious discussion fora, it's funny how it's *always* the so-called Christians, especially the 'born again' variety, who are the most obnoxious towards their fellow man.

QUOTE:

I love how you assume that veal farmers are inhumane, and that you are the gurdians of human morality. I know several farmers, and they are all very interested in the welfare of their livestock. Note - live stock, not pets. If you don't want to eat veal, that's your choice, but if you try to stop *me* eating veal, then you have a a whole different scenario to face.

Having studied farming methods in Britain and Europe, I know how veal is produced. You must follow your conscience.

Asitappens, I only eat UK veal (at home, anyway!), but that's because I prefer it to what others would call more subtle milk-fed veal, but which I regard as bland. That said, I acknowledge that veal crates are a less than ideal farming method, but in comparison with the sushi-slicing of live fish and skinning of live snakes which goes on in Oriental restaurants, (let alone the legendary monkey brains scooped from the trepanned skull of the still-living animal) and indeed in comparison with UK battery chicken farming, I think it is one of the lesser evils. Just my tuppence worth.

QUOTE:

Finally, you do argue your case! :-)I'm not sure how 'rational' is your livestock argument, as vegans tend to suffer from deficiency diseases! We are by evolution omnivores, and to deny that for some moral sense seems perverse to me.

Not sure how 'rational' your claim that 'vegans tend to suffer from deficiency diseases' is (hope Dave hasn't had to take to his sick bed!).

I guess that you believe that all vegetarians and vegans are constantly ill and pale looking and wander around in open-toe sandals. Of course, they never get the right amount of protein or vitamins do they, the poor souls!

I thought we were 'by evolution' the species with the most developed brain and, therefore, to be able to sustain ourselves (even with gastronomic pleasure) without the need to kill anything and everything else on the planet that moves.

QUOTE:

...vegans tend to suffer from deficiency diseases! ...

Really? Deficiency of what exactly? I'm aware of the danger of anecdotal evidence, but my two daughters are life-long vegans and are absolutely normal (okay, they're far better looking and far more intelligent than the average - but that's probably down to their genes!).

I like the use of the word 'tend' though - are you aware that non-vegans tend to be more prone to obesity. This line of argument could go on and on!

QUOTE:

...We are by evolution omnivores...

Meaning that we can eat lots of different things - not that we must choose to eat everything edible! I believe that it's the choices we make that define us as moral beings. Some like to kill; some let others kill for them; and some try to avoid killing at all. It's the latter that tend to be patronised. ;)